The West Block – Episode 22, Season 12

THE WEST BLOCK

Episode 22, Season 12

Sunday, February 19, 2023

Host: Mercedes Stephenson

Company:

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister

Location:

Ottawa, ON

Mercedes Stephenson: A rustic scarred by divisions after the pandemic and dealing with threats from overseas. How can we heal the nation and shield Canadians?

I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.

Out of the frying pan, into the hearth: The Rouleau Fee finds the federal authorities was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act, however the Liberals are dealing with new questions on Chinese language interference in Canada’s democracy.

Plus, is Canada’s Arctic safe? Questions on holes in our defences loom after the Chinese language spy balloon saga.

A state of affairs that spun uncontrolled, that’s how Justice Paul Rouleau described what was occurring throughout final winter’s convoy blockades. His report into the prime minister’s choice to invoke the Emergencies Act got here out final Friday. Justice Rouleau mentioned the federal government had met the brink they wanted to, however that the state of affairs in and of itself was additionally a failure of federalism.

Justice Paul Rouleau, Public Order Emergencies Act Fee: “Making ready for and responding to conditions of risk and urgency in a federal system requires governments in any respect ranges, and people who lead them, to rise above politics and collaborate for the widespread good. In January and February, 2022 this didn’t all the time occur.” 

Mercedes Stephenson: Public Security Minister Marco Mendicino joins me now. Welcome to the present, minister.

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Thanks for having me.

Mercedes Stephenson: I suppose you couldn’t have requested for a lot of a greater report as the federal government. It very clearly mentioned that this was required, however it additionally mentioned it by no means wanted to get so far, that there have been failures in policing. There have been failures in politics. There have been failures in politicians at totally different ranges of presidency, to get alongside. Do you would like you’d dealt with this in a different way or acted sooner?

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Nicely first, I wish to start my—expressing my gratitude to Choose Rouleau for issuing his report. After rigorously listening to the entire proof over various weeks, he did come to the conclusion that the federal government was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act and that’s as a result of, as you identified, this was a protest that was nationwide in scale. It impacted folks and employees. It fully upended people’ means of going about their day by day lives. And the federal government had a accountability to behave, so we took that accountability and we took that call very critically. We didn’t wish to invoke the act, however we did and it labored. And it resolved the blockades. Nobody acquired harm. There have been no fatalities. There was no important harm to property. And now we’ve got to set about trying on the suggestions that he was very considerate in writing, together with ensuring that we’ve acquired robust traces of communication with police and governments in order that ideally, we by no means get into this case once more.

Mercedes Stephenson: Did you agree with the evaluation that Doug Ford principally deserted the folks of Ottawa, in line with this report that the Ontario authorities didn’t act?   

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Nicely there’s little question that there was very troublesome moments not just for the provinces and the territories, however for the police and that’s the reason the federal government took each step to deal with these challenges, as Choose Rouleau wrote in his report. I believe one of many necessary factors going ahead is to strengthen the collaboration, strengthen the coordination between all ranges of presidency in order that it by no means does get to a degree the place you should invoke the Emergencies Act. There are some concrete suggestions round policing and sharing of knowledge and intelligence, and even among the texts which are within the legislation itself. We’re going to review these very rigorously and we’re going to work with all of our provincial and territorial companions, together with Ontario with whom we’ve acquired an excellent working relationship to go ahead, as a result of there’s nothing extra necessary than defending the well being and security of Canadians.

Mercedes Stephenson: On Friday, Prime Minister Trudeau principally mentioned that he was sorry for calling individuals who engaged on this a fringe minority, and there’s been numerous dialogue concerning the divisions in Canada and the form of language that was used. Pierre Poilievre, the Opposition Chief, is laying the accountability for the convoy on the ft of the Liberal authorities, saying that because of authorities overreach on COVID restrictions that went too far for too lengthy and the best way that you simply talked about individuals who disagreed with them is actually what led to this. Is there some fact to that?  

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: There’s positively some fact to the truth that Canadians have been hurting all through the pandemic. And there’s additionally fact in the truth that we stay in a democracy and other people have a basic proper to precise totally different factors of view, and having debates is likely one of the methods wherein we make ahead progress. Nevertheless it’s additionally true that the federal government at each crucial juncture all through the pandemic and all through our tenure has all the time positioned as a paramount purpose, the safety of the well being and security of Canadians. And after we do this, we base our choices on proof and science and details. And as we navigate these difficult occasions, it’s necessary that we work collectively, and I believe, maybe, that is likely one of the most necessary themes that come out of the Rouleau Fee report.  

Mercedes Stephenson: However that wasn’t actually your authorities’s tone on the time.

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Nicely, I might merely say that sure, there are positively some classes to be taken, however our dedication is to review the suggestions very rigorously and convey Canadians alongside as we speed up our restoration popping out of the pandemic. However this was an necessary second for us to behave. We had an obligation to behave. We have been confronted with a really distinctive state of affairs, the place folks couldn’t get to work. Hundreds of individuals have been laid off, briefly. Companies have been shut down. Folks couldn’t traverse the border. We had one among our closest, if not our closest ally in america, expressing the profound considerations that these blockades would interrupt the stream of crucial provide chains. Within the truth of all of these circumstances, we had no option to act. We have been all the time reluctant to invoke and desperate to revoke. And now we’ll research the Fee report, to take no matter classes we have to, going ahead so ideally, we by no means must invoke it once more. 

Mercedes Stephenson: Because the minister of public security, you oversee the RCMP and CSIS, two of Canada’s policing and intelligence companies that take care of overseas interference. It’s one thing that World Information has reported on rather a lot. There was a fairly explosive report in The Globe and Mail on Friday, citing paperwork, very excessive degree paperwork from CSIS, speaking about China’s makes an attempt to intrude instantly within the election, and actually, a goal, significantly Conservative candidates and to trigger them to lose. This was the technique. You might have repeatedly mentioned that you simply didn’t have any proof of China interfering. Then on Friday, the prime minister got here out and mentioned, effectively after all we’ve identified China’s attempting to intrude for a very long time. My query to you is: Do you, or do you not, have proof that China interfered within the 2021 election?

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Mercedes, we’ve all the time been up entrance with Canadians that overseas interference is a big risk within the nationwide safety panorama, and that’s why we created unbiased panels made up of non-partisan, skilled public servants, to look at very rigorously the circumstances within the 2019 and 2021 federal elections. And after conducting that overview, they got here to the conclusion that these elections have been free and truthful. Now that’s crucial…

Mercedes Stephenson: Regardless of what CSIS is saying, as a result of CSIS is—I ought to be cautious of that—CSIS isn’t saying they weren’t free or truthful elections…  

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: That’s proper. They’re not saying that.   

Mercedes Stephenson: They’re documenting threats which weren’t publicly revealed. Ought to you’ve got advised the Canadian folks about these makes an attempt to intrude? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: We’ve all the time been up entrance with the truth that there’s overseas interference that we should be eyes wide-open and vigilant about. They pose a risk to our democratic establishments, which is why we put in place instruments like Invoice C-76, to cease overseas funding from interfering with elections, which is why we created two panels. And it was as much as the non… 

Mercedes Stephenson: However when have been these created? Weren’t they earlier than the 2021 election? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: To be clear, we created each of these panels to take a look at each elections. You don’t need elected politicians wading into the outcomes. You need non-partisan, skilled public servants, to independently research the circumstances of the elections, who concluded on their very own, independently, that the elections have been free and truthful. And that’s necessary… 

Mercedes Stephenson: Did they’ve entry to the CSIS experiences? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: And I simply wish to full the thought. That’s necessary as a result of that signifies that Canadians, and Canadians alone, decided the end result of these elections, and we’ll proceed to ensure that we’re eyes wide-open about that.  

Mercedes Stephenson: Did that panel have entry to those intelligence experiences? Have been they conscious of what CSIS was conscious of? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Our non-partisan, skilled public servants have a look at the data that they should, to make the evaluation across the integrity of the election.

Mercedes Stephenson: Does that embrace the CSIS report?

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: So that they get the entry that they should the data that’s required to return to these conclusions. And people are necessary [00:09:20] towards the threats of overseas interference. I’d additionally level out that it’s not nearly democratic establishments. It’s additionally about defending our economic system, which is why in current days, myself, Minister Champagne, Minister Duclos, additionally strengthened the protections within the educational sector by guaranteeing that there are stricter pointers on the subject of analysis partnerships once they suggest to review delicate areas, the place that partnership contains army and different delicate branches of hostile state actors. This authorities will all the time take no matter steps which are essential, to guard our democratic establishments, shield our elections, shield our economic system and to guard Canadians from overseas interference.

Mercedes Stephenson: Does that embrace expelling Chinese language diplomats who’re bragging about makes an attempt to affect the election?

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: We are going to all the time take no matter steps that’s essential. If which means condemning hostile state actors, we’ll do it. If which means taking different measures, then we’ll do it. And we’re eyes extensive open about what these threats seem like and we’ve put in place… 

Mercedes Stephenson: However you’ve identified about these threats for a while. We’re simply discovering out about them as a result of we’re seeing the paperwork. However you’re the minister of public security, so folks will surprise why haven’t you taken extra aggressive motion? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Nicely within the first case, we’re taking very aggressive motion to take care of the threats and I’ve laid out various concrete instruments in order that Canadians may be assured that their elections are free and truthful, that they they usually alone decide the outcomes of it, and they are often completely assured that that’s the case. That on the subject of defending our economic system, we’re placing in further measures. In 2019, we handed Invoice C-59, to provide CSIS further risk discount measure powers, however the corresponding accountability of the federal government is to be clear. And so by creating NSIRA, the Nationwide Safety Intelligence Overview Company… 

Mercedes Stephenson: Have you ever been clear with Canadians about what you recognize, although?

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Completely. By creating NSIRA, by creating the Nationwide Safety Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and sure, by creating the crucial response group that may be a panel that’s made up of unbiased, non-partisan public servants who report back to Canadians overtly, transparently… 

Mercedes Stephenson: And didn’t doc any threats to the election. 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: …overtly and transparently in order that Canadians can ensure that their democratic establishments are protected. That’s the excessive bar that this authorities has set and that’s the excessive bar that the federal government will proceed to stay as much as.  

Mercedes Stephenson: I’ve heard from each Liberals and Conservatives that it’s harmful to speak about China trying to fund interference in Canadian elections as a result of it might trigger you to lose an election or lose a seat, that there’s very a lot, and it’s not a Liberal or Conservative facet essentially, that there’s a hazard to speaking about China from a political vantage of profitable an election. Do you assume that that’s impeding a willingness on all sides of the political spectrum to crack down on China? 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Nationwide safety isn’t a partisan subject. That is one thing that every one events ought to be united in addressing. And that’s the reason after we talk about this, we talk about it by way of counting on our establishments, counting on non-partisan public servants, to make sure that our democratic establishments are protected. We’re counting on the varied branches inside the Nationwide Safety and Intelligence Companies, to provide the instruments that they want, to guard our economic system, to guard our communities. And by giving them these instruments, we are able to tackle the considerations which have been expressed round intimidation, round harassment, round potential retaliation. The federal government is there to help all Canadians and we’ll proceed to be eyes wide-open about addressing these threats by ensuring that every one of our companies have the instruments that they want however with the corresponding transparency that’s required to be upfront with Canadians in order that Canadians can keep confidence of their establishments.

Mercedes Stephenson: We all know that each our viewers and we right here at The West Block love transparency, so we stay up for having you again once more. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us at this time, minister. 

Marco Mendicino, Public Security Minister: Thanks, Mercedes.

Up subsequent, why a former defence minister says the Chinese language spy balloon and people different aerial objects ought to be a wakeup name for Canada.  

Mercedes Stephenson: There are numerous unanswered questions concerning the Chinese language spy balloon and the three aerial objects shot down by NORAD earlier this month.

U.S. President Joe Biden is saying the three objects have been probably innocent. However between the spy balloon and scrambled fighter jets, tensions with China are clearly on the rise. Biden says his message to Beijing is evident: The U.S. gained’t tolerate a violation of its sovereignty.

Joe Biden, U.S. President: “We search competitors, not battle with China. We’re not on the lookout for a brand new Chilly Battle.” 

Mercedes Stephenson: Becoming a member of me now to speak about Canada’s response is former Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay. Peter, thanks for approaching.

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: My pleasure, Mercedes.

Mercedes Stephenson: We’ve been watching this entire factor, monitoring it very intently. You possibly can see it actually escalating when it appeared for some time like there may be 4 spy balloons. Now they’re saying just one positively was, however it’s a part of a world surveillance program that the Chinese language are conducting and there’s this sense of stress between China and never simply Canada however the U.S. and North America that I can’t bear in mind seeing for years. What’s your tackle the state of affairs that we’re in proper now?

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Nicely, I believe you’re proper. There was a second in time most likely final week, the place it appeared surreal that there have been quite a few of those platforms—commentary platforms as they have been being described, some saying UFO. It appears to be like increasingly more just like the proof will bear out that it was one after which others that coincidently had entered North American airspace. What made it a bit troublesome to interpret was they have been all totally different sizes, totally different places at totally different altitudes and NORAD, after all, is tasked, at the beginning with defending the skies over North America, the continent. It’s a shared accountability: Canada-U.S. So one can perceive fairly why they took them down in a militaristic sense. They took them down with sidewinder missiles. It was American plane that was scrambled, though Canadian planes have been within the neighborhood. And it raises broader questions as you’ve alluded to in your opening. What does this imply for the continued tensions with China? With Russia as effectively, after all, and what concerning the defences of North America, significantly the vulnerability from the Arctic? And that’s the place, you recognize, the dialogue round Arctic defences and installations; commentary from the Arctic turns into actually, a crucial query.

Mercedes Stephenson: Nicely and I do know that that is one thing that you simply’ve been speaking about rather a lot not too long ago, and most of North America’s Arctic belongs to Canada. It’s Canadian territory. What sort of potential do we’ve got to truly monitor and defend that proper now?

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Little or no. We don’t have fashionable fighter plane, as you recognize. We’ve got some commentary platforms out there. We, after all, don’t have even the antiquated what they used to name the DEW line, which was a collection of sensors. However we all know the expertise exists by way of satellite tv for pc. We have to have the power to have extra ships there. For refuelling, we’ve got to have a deep water refuelling station. That’s nonetheless underneath building. It’s going to take a system of programs, if you’ll, together with underwater sensors. All of it is a huge funding. The present authorities has dedicated to that however over a really lengthy time frame. And if something, this balloon incident, which appears to be like to be overblown—pardon the pun—has put a pointy concentrate on what might be required. And I believe the Individuals have a larger appreciation and maybe somewhat extra nervousness about this than most Canadians. We haven’t taken this case critical sufficient, in my view.

Mercedes Stephenson: How a lot affect does Canada have on the desk by way of making these choices on issues like shoot downs proper now? As a result of it appeared like Justin Trudeau and Joe Biden have been each form of saying they ordered the shoot down. Does Canada have a voice or is it the U.S. calling the pictures?

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: We’ve got a voice, to make certain. However on this case, make no mistake, the Individuals known as the shot and took the shot with their plane and their missiles, which by the best way are about $0.5 million a pop. However we’re shedding face and we’re shedding that affect after we’re not upping our recreation. We don’t have fashionable plane. We don’t have the ships that we’d like. We definitely don’t have the variety of submarines that the U.S., the UK and others have. And that’s why, frankly, we weren’t invited to the desk with this new group known as [00:04:45 UKUSA], which is the equal of the 5 Eyes. So we’re on a downward spiral. We’re not paying our dedication to NATO with respect to the share of GDP. All of this in accumulation does diminish Canada’s voice at numerous tables.

Mercedes Stephenson: Do you assume that we’re going to see extra, not essentially simply spy balloons, however these sorts of incursions from states like Russia and China in areas that almost all of us within the public hadn’t even been fascinated with?

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Sadly, I believe it’s completely potential, virtually anticipated. I imagine the Chinese language have been opportunistic on this sense and Russia may be much more so. It’s not solely the air approaches that we should be involved about, Mercedes. With the opening of Arctic waters, equally, the Russians are extra energetic, the Chinese language as effectively in sending these analysis vessels by way of our waters. Russia, particularly, is recapitalizing a few of their previous army bases on their facet of the Arctic. So that’s to say the waters that we share, as much as a sure line, the Russians are rather more ready and rather more armed and rather more in a position. And so this can pose sure challenges to Canada, particularly, however to NORAD and North America. And the Arctic Rangers, God love them, we merely—we’d like rather more by way of our safety of sovereignty and projection of Canadian army functionality. 

Mercedes Stephenson: Talking of Russia, there was a Russian not incursion however kind of check of the Northern skies that NORAD mentioned they thought-about to be among the many norm. There was an interception that occurred final week, however after all, the place Russia is most energetic is Ukraine. And a 12 months on, numerous people didn’t assume we’d nonetheless see the Ukrainians preventing. They’re. The West has backed them, however it’s nonetheless very a lot a query of how that is going to prove? Do you assume that Western international locations are doing sufficient to help Ukraine and the way do you stability that with additionally not escalating it to being drawn in and considered probably as a combatant?

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: I don’t assume that we, the West, are doing sufficient and I worry that that is removed from over. Russia will regularly check the dedication of NATO and the West in what they’re doing on this unlawful invasion of Ukraine. As you recognize, this goes again to 2014. We’re arising on the one 12 months anniversary, if you’ll, of the true conflict on Ukraine. Nevertheless it start in Crimea in 2014, and so we, the West, have been making ready and have data of this for a really very long time. Sending in tanks, air defence programs, the whole lot in need of, fairly frankly, boots on the bottom, has to proceed. This can be a quintessential risk not simply to Ukraine, however to international safety and the entire order of peace on the planet. That is on Europe’s doorstep. What it has finished as effectively, Mercedes, clearly, is speed up the enlargement of NATO, enlargement of NATO. It has allowed Ukraine, maybe, to enter the European Union at an accelerated tempo as effectively, in an effort to take each step to push again on Russia. Nevertheless it’s coming at an enormous price, after all, in human lives. The infrastructure that’s being destroyed on the bottom and it’s additionally having an enormous influence on Russia. It has blown up spectacularly on them. They’re a poorer nation. They’re a weaker nation. They’ve misplaced their potential to mission energy and maybe turn out to be extra reliant, supplicant to China on account of this sick thought out incursion into their neighbouring nation of Ukraine.  

Mercedes Stephenson: Peter MacKay, former minister of defence, thanks for becoming a member of us at this time.

Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Thanks, Mercedes.

Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, taking inventory as Ukraine marks on 12 months since Russia’s invasion. 

Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last item, and this week it’s an important one. We’re approaching the one 12 months anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. The pictures of Russian troopers advancing shocked the world and few thought {that a} 12 months later, Ukraine would nonetheless be preventing. However their resolve stays robust. It’s been a 12 months crammed with atrocities, the systemic focusing on of civilians, the destruction of Ukrainian cities and cities and a protracted checklist of conflict crimes.

The West has backed Ukraine with phrases and weapons, seeing it because the entrance line between democracy and tyranny, however it has not been sufficient to win but. As we mark this tragic anniversary, we’ll see what extra the West is prepared to provide in coming days.

Thanks for watching at this time, and I’ll see you subsequent Sunday.